The Medmastery Show, Episode #1: Eric Topol | The Success Secrets of a Cardiology Icon

Today’s guest is none other than cardiology superstar Eric Topol MD. He’s the Chief Academic Officer of Scripps Health, Director of the Scripps Translational Science Institute, Editor in Chief of Medscape and theheart.org, he’s the The Gary and Mary West Chair of Innovative Medicine, and co-founder of the West Wireless Health Institute to name just a few.

At the young age of 36, Eric Topol was named Chairman of Cardiovascular Medicine at the Cleveland Clinic where he helped to catapult the institution into the leading ranks of the field. Eric has received so many honors that it’s beyond the scope of this post to list them all. This is just a short excerpt: He was named Doctor of the Decade by the Institute for Scientific Information. In 2012 the journal „Modern Healthcare“ ranked him as the most influential physician executive in the US. In 2009 GQ magazine elected Eric to be one of 12 physcician rockstars. He was elected into the Institute of Medicine by the National Academy of Science and the list goes on and on.

In 2012 he published the seminal Book "The crative desctruction of medicine“ that has been all over the media. It has become hugely popular especially among tech-savvy physicians. His book and his initiatives at Scripps have made him the figurehead of all things on the intersection of medicine and technology. So he’s been featured and interviewed on popular TV show like Colbert Nation and his TED talk has been viewed over 600.000 times. He’s been featured on the Economist, CSpan and Techcrunch.

And even though he’s such an acclaimed physician, he has remained approachable and ready to share his wisdom with the world.

• What skills are most valuable for a young doctor
• What character traits will keep you from being successful
• What was the best advice he ever got from a mentor
• What he would recommend to his 20 year old self
• How to approach someone who could potentially become your mentor.
• What books Eric recommends
• How Eric spends his mornings
• How he keeps up with all the information overflow
• How Eric uses Twitter/X to stay productive and up-to-date
• What to do if you find yourself in a position that won’t let you maximize your full potential
• How to stay motivated
• How Eric structures his mornings so he’s energized and up-to-date
• How to choose the right projects to work on
• And much, much more

The Language of Life: DNA and the Revolution in Personalized Medicine
Missing Microbes: How the Overuse of Antibiotics Is Fueling Our Modern Plagues
The Creative Destruction of Medicine: How the Digital Revolution Will Create Better Health Care

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This transcript was auto-generated. If you notice an error, please report it to us via our contact form.

Franz [00:00:00]:
Welcome to the Medmastery Show. My name is Franz Wiesbauer, internist with a specialization in cardiology. Each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you unlock your full potential. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the show begin. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the first episode of the Madmastery Show. My name is Franz Wiesbauer and I'm your host. Today's guest is someone very special.

Franz [00:00:34]:
He's one of the most renowned cardiologists in the world. His name is Eric Topol. Eric wears many hats. He's the chief academic officer of Scripps Health, director of the Scripps Translational Science Institute, editor in chief of Medscape and the heart dot org. He's the Gary and Mary West Chair of Innovative Medicine and cofounder of the West Wireless Health Institute to name just a few. Eric's story is really remarkable. At the young age of 36, he was named chairman of cardiovascular medicine at the Cleveland Clinic where he helped to catapult leading ranks of the field. Eric has received so many honors that it's really beyond the scope of this podcast to list them all.

Franz [00:01:14]:
This is just a short excerpt. He was named doctor of the decade by the Institute of Scientific Information. The journal Modern Healthcare ranked him as the most influential physician executive in the US. GQ Magazine elected Eric to be one of 12 physician rock stars, and he was elected into the Institute of Medicine by the National Academy of Science. In 2012, he published the seminal book, The Creative Destruction of Medicine that has been all over the media. It has become hugely popular especially among tech savvy physicians. His book and his initiatives at Scripps have made him the figurehead of all things on the intersection of medicine and technology. So he's been featured and interviewed on popular TV shows like Colbert Nation.

Franz [00:01:56]:
His TED talk has been viewed over 600,000 times. He's been featured on The Economists C SPAN and TechCrunch. And even though he's such an acclaimed physician, he has remained approachable and ready to share his wisdom with the world. So without further ado, let's jump right into the interview. Thanks so much, Eric, for taking the time for this interview.

Eric [00:02:16]:
Oh, I'm pleased to do it with you, friends.

Franz [00:02:19]:
Eric, you've been in the media a lot these last couple of years. You've become somewhat of a figurehead for everything that's on the intersection of medicine and technology. And most of the interviews, at least the ones that I've read or listened to, dealt with exactly that topic. In this interview, however, I'd like to take a slightly different angle if you allow me to. You're such an accomplished physician. The list of your successes and titles and honours goes on and on. So what a lot of colleagues, especially the young ones, would love to know is how a doctor can be as productive and successful as you are. Is this something you'd be willing to share with us?

Eric [00:02:58]:
As best as I can. Sure.

Franz [00:03:01]:
Great. So here's my first question. When you look at physicians and doctors, what traits impress you the most in in those physicians?

Eric [00:03:12]:
Well, that's, of course, a, a special, admixture, amalgam of of many traits. Some of which are the ability to communicate and their interpersonal skills and their empathy and compassion, but the other is the desire to be up to speed with knowledge and information, taking that to the kind of nth degree. So, I think to be, particularly successful in as a physician and particularly physician researcher educator, it takes both, that is both the interpersonal skills and ability to really communicate, not just effectively but in an extraordinary way, but also that desire to keep up in a field because as you know, front swings move so fast, and it really takes special effort.

Franz [00:04:16]:
Yeah. Do you think this is something that's learnable, or is this a a personality trait that you either have or you don't?

Eric [00:04:26]:
Well, I think on the communication and interpersonal skill side, it's hard to teach that. I mean, you can you can kinda tweak it, but I don't know if you can actually, you know, get somebody who is not really into that to become particularly skilled. You can there's some coaching and training, yes, but it's difficult. On the keeping up the literature and really knowing the field that's perhaps, as long as the ones are willing to put in the effort that I don't think is is hard to to cultivate. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Franz [00:05:05]:
Great answer. My next question would be, what skills can a young doctor in training develop that will be most individually rewarding and at the same time, the most beneficial to her hospital or patients? I mean, feel free to talk about cardiology in particular if that makes it easier to answer the question.

Eric [00:05:26]:
Well, I I think it's that curiosity is not accepting, dogma in medicine, and that applies across the board. That, you know, what is the evidence for this or that? What can we do better? What are unmet needs? Always thinking about, how things could be better, for patients and for the practice of medicine that we don't question enough. It's basically a a problem. And young people, tend to accept things because that's the way it's been done and the old people teach them that way.

Franz [00:06:02]:
Yeah. Is it, I mean, if we if we drill it down to, like, skills, so this what you just said is kind of like an attitude to take, like, to to to not accept dogmas. But if we drill it down to skills, do you think that then the skill to develop would be, like, critical, reasoning skills? Or

Eric [00:06:25]:
Yeah. I think you just hit it nicely, Franz. It is indeed the ability to, analytical. And, when you read, let's say, a publication to look at it with skepticism and to understand what are the bugs or the holes in any particular study, whether it's a basic science translational study or clinical trial, whatever it is. There's no perfect study, of course. So, it's a learning how to get at that, which is, I think, fundamental. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Franz [00:06:58]:
Yeah. Great. What career related skills do you wish you had learned in medical school, but courses on that subject weren't available back then?

Eric [00:07:11]:
Well, I had been a major in genetics in college, but in medical school, that was terribly underemphasized. And that's certainly one of the most exciting parts of the future of medicine, current and future especially. So I wish that there had been a deep dive into genetics and genomics. It just wasn't really the time for that. It still isn't actually around the world. Medical engineering and understanding the whole world of chips and and how that can be transformative, in our practice of medicine. I think, again, it's not enough there's not enough of this whole digital, interface, in the medical, education.

Franz [00:08:01]:
Yeah. Any any skills, outside of medicine, biology, and genetics that you had wished you you had learned?

Eric [00:08:12]:
Well, I think there's that lifelong learning that is a desire to, you know, keep up and and stay ahead, in fact. That was cultivated, I think, and I think that that's something that help all mentors and medical educators really, are able to instill the importance of that. Mhmm. I

Franz [00:08:36]:
mean, medicine really changes, very fast, and and you're, like, one of the biggest advocates of that message, I guess. So and nobody really knows what the doctor of the future really looks like, and we're educating people to become doctors for a future that we really don't know much about. What skills do you think can someone develop now that will still be relevant in the future? I mean, like, any any meta skills that that even if being a doctor changes radically will still be valid and useful?

Eric [00:09:14]:
Well, again, we go back to that, how I started is, you know, listening skills, you know, being able to have the highest respect for the patient, and the empathy and really trying to pick up everything that a patient is transmitting, willingness, of course, to do that through emails and phone calls, not just always in person, and we're going to see a lot more of kind of the telemedical world going forward. But then the other part, as I alluded to is, this, I think this essential part of, of knowing one's field, whatever that turns out to be within medicine, in an exemplary way so that there's never a time, along the course of practicing medicine when there's no sense of being on top of all the information that's being, amalgamated on a daily basis.

Franz [00:10:16]:
Over the course of your career, you you may have encountered people whose careers did not align with, with what you perceived as their potential. Do you think there's a common reason why this happened? Were there risks Yeah. That's mismatch?

Eric [00:10:32]:
I I do think so. So, you know, as a a mentor, I often would see people who I thought had extraordinary potential that never got actualized. And almost invariably, I believe it was lack of confidence. And that is the fact that anyone could be a successful, physician scientist, physician researcher. But many believe that, I think intrinsically that they they just aren't gonna make it. And it's unfortunate because I I do think that there's so many more physician young trainees that could be, leaders in the field, but they just don't have enough confidence, in themselves in in spite of, you know, trying to help, support that. It just doesn't doesn't become truly durable and embedded.

Franz [00:11:26]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Being bold is is is really important, I guess. I I've made the experience that a lot of doctors, they they have this and this somewhat relates to what you just said, this this permission mindset, where they don't dare to do something just because they think it would be a good idea, but they're like, I have no degree for that. No no training for that. I can't do that. I think they're less bold in a lot of ways than than than a lot of other people, like the entrepreneurial crowd, especially I'm talking about.

Eric [00:12:03]:
Right. Right.

Franz [00:12:04]:
Yeah.

Eric [00:12:04]:
Good question.

Franz [00:12:06]:
Can you recommend a must read book, that will help young doctors broaden their skills or inspire them to reach their highest potential?

Eric [00:12:15]:
Oh, gosh. That's a tricky one. And, obviously, I'm so biased with the Creative Destruction book. As far as other books, that are sort of nurturing skill sets in physicians, That's tough, Ron. I'm not I haven't come across one in recently. I don't have one to recommend offhand. Perhaps you can mention the 2 that you thought were good and I can see if I know of them.

Franz [00:12:43]:
Well, yeah. I mean, like, a couple of books that I I really liked. I mean, like, obviously, House of God kind of, really, House of God kind of, really that that was a a huge boost for my motivation, so to speak. Like, I I really loved that story. I loved that novel. And it was really, yeah, it was really a very important book for me. 2, like, other sorts of books, like, they're certainly very good, cardiology books. I think, your book, I've I've carried that around with me a lot in the clinic in the clinic.

Franz [00:13:17]:
And, and and and and Hein Wellens' book, the ECG and Emergency Decision Making, that certainly is one of the one of my my favorite ones. And

Eric [00:13:29]:
Sure. Sure.

Franz [00:13:30]:
And,

Eric [00:13:30]:
oh, yeah. When you get to specific disciplines, I thought you were trying to come up with a a book that would be, you know, kind of futuristic for young physicians about, you know, new directions, new paths. But oh, yeah. There I I certainly agree.

Franz [00:13:46]:
Is is there a book that you've given away the most? Like, is there one single book that you say, yeah, I've given that away a lot?

Eric [00:13:55]:
Not over the years, it's it's changed so much. You know, a few years back, I was really, giving a Francis Collins book, The Language of Life, which is in order to try to get young physicians to get into genomics, and it's a really nice book because it's well suited for kind of like genomics 101. Right now I'm into this microbes book by Martin Blaser, Missing Microbes, because I think the microbiome is so fascinating. So I've been giving that book out. And I mean, it kind of it reflects I get bored easily, so I need to get new topics that are hot and exciting. You know? And so that that would probably be how I would respond. It's never been, I'm not I'm not too much into the classics. I'm into the the movements.

Franz [00:14:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, talking talking of getting getting getting bored. So how do you how do you stay motivated, when you're working on projects or tasks or maybe even reading books that are not so intrinsically interesting, but will add value to your overall knowledge base. Any any tips on on how to do that?

Eric [00:15:09]:
Well, I think being an information junkie, information addict is a really good quality. I mean, I'm into that. I'm really, you know, into Twitter for learning from other people and sharing what I think is interesting. And, I think that gets people charged up because, you know, you feel like, you get the sense that there's a pulse there. The medical knowledge is expanding, you know, every second and, it's electricity. It's exciting. So that, I think, helps motivate. And then when you start to see that that information can come into play on a daily basis in patient care, that's when it really when it really hits and it becomes, you know, takes it to another level.

Eric [00:15:56]:
Yeah. Mhmm.

Franz [00:15:58]:
Slightly different question. If you found yourself in a position that you knew was not maximizing your full potential, what would you do?

Eric [00:16:06]:
Move on, because, you know, life is too short and, you know, we really don't have that that long an opportunity to make a difference. Mhmm. And so, I think that's something that's essential to not stand still and where you feel like you're not clicking, where you're not actualizing what you could do. So I think that's really important to if possible, whenever possible to move to a position where you, you know, are gonna be able to really max out what you what you can do.

Franz [00:16:43]:
How long would you would you give it a try before you decided to move on?

Eric [00:16:48]:
Well, that's tricky. I mean, I was just on the, on a call before we got started with a former trainee who is having a really hard time at his current institution and is having a hard time moving knowing he wants to move. So that's the tricky part is, you know, finding the right the right position. And so sometimes it isn't immediately available, and you just gotta keep working at it. But once you once you make the diagnosis that it's just not the right environment, it's not the right colleagues or whatever it is that's not right. It's it's time to at least start looking. Mhmm.

Franz [00:17:26]:
In in your opinion, is there such a thing as a perfect job or perfect position?

Eric [00:17:31]:
No. No. I don't think so. Just like we talked about, there's not a perfect study, perfect publication. No, I think the perfect job is, you can try to approach that, where you feel like your specific talents and interests, are matched up. But there's never there's always some bureaucratic or some adverse aspect that's never perfect.

Franz [00:17:56]:
What was the best, piece of professional advice you've ever received and used or implemented?

Eric [00:18:03]:
Well, it's interesting. It's simple. And that was actually, from, was the chairman of medicine, Joe Greenfield. And he said, many, many years ago when I was at Michigan and I think he might leave. He said, Eric, here's my advice. Go where you're appreciated. And that has helped me, you know, all along is, when I would make a change in position. I've only really had 3 jobs over the course of my career.

Eric [00:18:32]:
But, to be where you're really appreciated, that that is an important simple but great, professional advice.

Franz [00:18:42]:
That's that's such a wise advice, actually. Very, very smart. I love it. Is there something that you would advise? I'd like if you could advise your 20 year old self, what would it be?

Eric [00:18:56]:
I wish I could go back and do that. You know, I think, some of the things we've discussed, you know, the the idea of of never, be satiated with what you can learn, You'll never feel complacent about how much you can do to help patients. I I think finding mentors that really get you, excited about what you're doing is is obviously quite important. Sometimes they're not so easy to find.

Franz [00:19:31]:
Any tips on that? Because that's something that's a question I get a lot. How do you find a mentor?

Eric [00:19:36]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think you have to search, and, I think you have to really feel, kind of a special kindred with another person who can be a guide, for you and and and be a cheerleader for you.

Franz [00:19:52]:
Any do's or don'ts, as to how to approach them? Any, like I'm I'm sure you've been approached, many many times, to be someone's mentor. Were there any any kind of, like, ways of approaching you that turned you totally off or that were really smart and and and techful?

Eric [00:20:15]:
Well, I have the greatest regard for people who are, you know, creative, imaginative. So I think when people do that in in those kind of ways or have ideas to discuss that they're thinking about that often at least to that kind of intellectual bond, basically mind bending kind of thing. And I think that really helps a lot. So it's not just you know, I had somebody come up to me the other day and says I'd like to work with you, doctor Topol. Do you have any data lying around that I can write up? And that that did get me excited, you know. But rather, you know, I'm thinking about such and such, and I I'm you know, what do you think? And I think engaging at that level, is a much better way to to find to to scout out, you know, someone to to to really work with and Mhmm. And to develop a a great relationship with.

Franz [00:21:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So finding out what what your potential mentor could also be interested in, and then then bond on those things. Or what are their needs, and how could you kind of, like, help them reach their needs? Is that

Eric [00:21:28]:
Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. You got it. Right.

Franz [00:21:31]:
Mhmm. Absolutely. Great. If you could learn from one person, who would it be and why?

Eric [00:21:38]:
I don't know that you can learn, from 1 person, because no one person, you know, covers them the waterfront. So I think that you can admire certain people, but I don't know that that would be the best tact. I think you wanna learn from different people.

Franz [00:21:59]:
Is there is there one person that you really admire and you think you could learn from a certain thing? And, if so, who who would that be?

Eric [00:22:11]:
Oh, gosh. That's a tough one. I might have to bring people back from the dead.

Franz [00:22:18]:
Yeah. Let's imagine you could.

Eric [00:22:22]:
Oh, gosh. There's so many, that fit in that bill. I mean, I I gosh. They they I could go on and on. I I better not get started on that one. Okay. Gotcha. That's a tricky tricky one.

Eric [00:22:36]:
I gotta I gotta think more on on that. That's hard.

Franz [00:22:39]:
Yeah. Slightly. I thought

Eric [00:22:41]:
I thought you'd be happy just by saying you can't have 1 person. But, actually, the people who intrigued me the most, in current life are the great innovators like Elon Musk, who, I think is extraordinary. You know, people like that. They're not in medicine, but what they're doing in their own world is, you know, transcending, things. And I I have the highest regard for that.

Franz [00:23:10]:
What what would you ask Elon if you if you would have dinner with him?

Eric [00:23:15]:
Well, I hope to I hope that to do that someday, and I would ask him, you know, what like, for example, when he decides to make an electric car, what were all the barriers, you know, what what made him wanna do it and how did he get it done and now with the SpaceX thing, you know, the same kind of thing. What what drove him? What were the things that held him back? Adversity and being able to deal with that is is the thing that makes you strong. And, I think, you know, there's a real you like to experience it because it just gets you better over the course of your career. And

Franz [00:23:54]:
Yeah.

Eric [00:23:54]:
He is, I think, could could teach us all a lot about that.

Franz [00:23:58]:
Yeah. You're very modest because I think, you've you've accomplished at least as much as, as him in in the medical field. I mean, like, he you know, well, I think so. And, I mean, he he he chooses his projects wisely, I guess. And and that's a question that I would like to ask you as well. How do you choose and prioritize your projects? I'm sure you have hundreds of potential projects and collaborations that are are lying or that get to your desk. How do you decide which ones will be most fruitful?

Eric [00:24:35]:
Yeah. I'm glad you asked that, Franz. I I think the the biggest criteria is, can it be transformative? Is this going to be some little incremental thing, which is not going to really move the needle, really change medicine? Or is this potentially now many will not get there, but does this have the potential to really be a major impact, substantial impact? And so if it doesn't pass that test, then I usually don't have any interest.

Franz [00:25:08]:
Mhmm. So it's the big questions really that interest you.

Eric [00:25:12]:
Yeah. I I don't think we spend enough time on that. I think we tend to, as a medical community, we tend to be too much involved with the minor incremental things that if we put more energy into higher risk, higher reward or impact things, I think it'd be something that would we all would benefit from.

Franz [00:25:34]:
What do you what do your mornings look like? I'm very interested in in morning rituals and and actually the days. How like, the days of very accomplished people, very productive people. I'm very interested in that. Do you have any any morning rituals or rituals during the day? When do you focus on work? When do you get most of your, creative productive work done? Is it in the mornings and at night? Can you can you tell us a little bit about that?

Eric [00:26:02]:
Yeah. Well, I get up early in the morning, and I usually, you know, get right on, Twitter to see what's cooking, what's new, exciting, and, you know, just kinda catch up on whatever. Yeah. And then I go and exercise. And I do that almost every day, and that's really kinda critical part of the morning for me. And then, you know, then I just go after that, get into work. And, otherwise, it's kind of a standard day. You know, when some days I have a bunch of meetings and, some day and and conferences.

Eric [00:26:37]:
Some days it's patient day, clinic day. There's some always some travel, which I try to avoid, but that's kinda thrown in there erratically. But, it's usually a a a day when I also then, get home in the evening. After dinner, my my wife and I often get back to reading, and that's kinda I like to spend the the morning and, you know, an hour or so in the morning and at least a couple few hours in the evening, reading, whether that's, journals, websites, you know, links from Twitter or books, whatever it is. Mhmm.

Franz [00:27:17]:
When do you get up in the morning?

Eric Topol [00:27:20]:
Usually somewhere in the 5 to 6 AM range, you know, in that depends on the winter. It's closer to 6, and in the summer, earlier. But, yeah, in that ballpark.

Franz Wiesbauer [00:27:33]:
And and you exercise every day?

Eric [00:27:36]:
Yeah. Pretty much. I mean, it's it's a rare day. Maybe if I have if I'm I'm sick or something, but, otherwise, I I usually get, on the elliptical and, listen to some music and do some Pilates, and that's kind of the usual routine.

Franz [00:27:52]:
Nice. Nice. Any meditation?

Eric [00:27:56]:
No. That's a good question. No. I sometimes I thought maybe I should get into that. It seems we're studying meditation right now with various sensors, and it's really interesting. So maybe in the future. Yeah. I get I get wiser.

Eric [00:28:12]:
Maybe that's do you do you meditate?

Franz [00:28:15]:
Yeah. Well, yeah. I I I have a yoga routine every morning. So I get up at, like, at 5:30, do 50 minutes of yoga, and then something like 20 minutes of of meditation. And it has really had an incredible impact on my well-being. And, yeah. The really, the the ability to let thoughts go, really. That that has been the biggest impact.

Franz [00:28:42]:
You know, like, you how sometimes you have sticky thoughts where thoughts that come back haunt you, that kind of thing. But if you practice yoga, it's like you're practicing letting thoughts go. And and that has been extremely beneficial, to my life. So I can just highly recommend it.

Eric [00:29:00]:
Yeah. That's great.

Franz [00:29:02]:
I

Eric [00:29:03]:
have to get in. Maybe you taught me something here. I'll have to get in.

Franz [00:29:06]:
I hope so. I'd be so happy if I would've. Lastly, can you recommend any productivity apps or, apps in general or techniques, like getting things done that make your day easier, more productive?

Eric [00:29:23]:
Well, I mean, there's things like Dropbox, of course, which keeps all your files wherever you go. I I'm a big fan of that, or the others that that enable that. I I do think I go back to Twitter as, the way to really have an army of people searching the web for you continuously. And what a way to maximize your productivity. I mean, years ago, I would have to go to a whole bunch of websites to see what's going on, and now I don't go just go to 1.

Franz [00:29:54]:
Yeah.

Eric [00:29:55]:
So, that's a good one. I I think, there'll be a lot more coming. I think there's an awful lot of effort being used to take this digital world forward for for physicians. And, the digital natives, the young physicians, are the luckiest of all.

Franz [00:30:13]:
Yeah. Talking of Twitter, how do you choose whom to follow?

Eric [00:30:19]:
I I try not to take people, I follow people who are, you know, very pro to tweet too much because then there's too much to read, and I usually try to read. So I take I have a limited number of people I try to follow who bring kind of diverse and interesting things into the mix. And I find that sometimes, you know, people because of their humor or sometimes it's because of their great knowledge in in particular areas, technology or genomics or whatever. So I try to get a a nice, mix of people who don't over tweet. Some people call that Twitter ria Mhmm. Because there's too much, then you just can't keep up with it. Yeah. Now they have a a mute function.

Eric [00:31:03]:
So if someone tweets too much, they're having a a a rough patch. You just put them on mute, and then you don't have to deal with it. But I don't usually use the mute feature.

Franz [00:31:13]:
How do you consume Twitter? Do you have just the Twitter app or are you Hootsuite or or, TweetEx?

Eric [00:31:21]:
I used to use the Twitter app. That's all I've ever I I looked at some of these other ones. I didn't think they really provided any particular benefit. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Franz [00:31:31]:
Yeah. Great. Well, thanks so much, Eric, for the for your time, and, for sharing all this wisdom with us.

Eric [00:31:38]:
Oh, well, thanks for all your tough questions. I enjoyed the discussion with you, friends.

Franz [00:31:43]:
Yeah. Hope to speak to you soon, Eric. If you want more of the Medmastery Show, you can subscribe to the podcast on Itunes or go to medmastery.com/blog, where you can find more valuable resources like blog posts, online courses, and much, much more. Follow us on [email protected]/matmastery. Till next time. Thanks for listening.